Saddleback Civil Forum Reactions

For once a pretty fair assesment coming from you..McCain is a Panderer and I like that less than a thougtful intelect like Obama.

When McCain was asked the question about evil his reply should have been, “My friends when I look in the mirror I see evil because I voted to send thousands of Americans to their deaths because of a big lie and I have no regrets. I am willing to sacrifice more Americans lives because I want to win at all cost. I do not have a conscience because it is all about me and what I want.”

Cross In The Sand: Solzhenitsyn's Or McCain's?
On August 16, 2008 McCain recounted his "Cross in the Sand" story at the Civil Forum at Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California. He tells the story in his 1999 book "Faith of My Fathers" and also used it in a 2007 television commercial:

"On Christmas, that same guard approached me, and without saying a word, he drew a cross in the sand. We stood wordlessly looking at the cross, remembering the true light of Christmas."

In some tellings, McCain says the guard uses his shoe to draw the cross, in others a stick is used. It is a touching story, and unusual in that Christianity is not a particularly popular religion in communist China, but McCain's prison guard was apparently familiar with it. However, McCain does not mention this incident in the 12,000 word story he told to U.S. News & World Report shortly after his return from Viet Nam. And, during his 2000 presidential bid, McCain told the same story, but in the third person, as if it had occured to someone else. Regardless, the story sounded eerily familiar to some (DailyKOs.com). After further research it was discovered that nearly the same incident occured to Russian author Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn while in a Siberian gulag. In Solzhenitsyn's book "The Gulag Archipelago", which was released in the U.S. in 1973, Aleksandr recounts:

"As he waited, head down, he felt a presence. Slowly, he lifted his eyes and saw a skinny, old prisoner squat down next to him. The man said nothing. Instead, he drew a stick through the ground at Solzhenitsyn's feet, tracing the sign of the Cross. The man then got back up and returned to his work."

Interestingly enough, McCain is quite familiar with the writings of Solzhenitsyn. In fact, he praises him in a book he coauthored with Mark Salter, saying Solzhenitsyn was "a writer with unusual gifts, utterly devoted to his art, brilliant and exacting, producing work that would stun not just literary worlds but the entire Cold War political world..."

So...
1. either the same incident occured to both men
2. Nobel prize winning author Solzhenitsyn copied the story from McCain in time to get it inserted in his book which was released in the west in 1973, the same year McCain returned from Viet Nam
3. or Mccain, having read the story in Solzhenitsyn's book, eventually took the story for his own

Source: http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/8/17/122230/161/239/569299

McCain was the better candidate at this forum. I doubt it is possible to ever get a quick response of any kind from Barack Obama. He stammers and stutters his way through every answer. I expect it is because he has changed his positions so many times he is unsure as to which one he is using at the moment.

I think you are pretty much on the money. But I didn't like the stories. I wanted to his positions on issues, something he dodges most of the time. He was definitely answering to that audience, rather than his prior positions. So the way I see it is that McCain is moving further to the right. While this might help him get elected, will this make him a truly successful candidate? It seem he thinks Obama isn't experienced enough. but what has experience given us in the last 8 years. Being an experienced electrician doesn't mean you are up to date with the latest technology.

McCain has never really earned anything. He is from a wealth pamperd background and not fit to lead this nation.

A "war hero" doesn't finished 894th out of 899 and still get stationed at a Navy champagne unit and promoted ahead of all but two of his 898 other classmates.

A "war hero" doesn't crash three U.S. Navy jets out of sheer incompetence and ineptitude, including two during non-combat training sessions.

A "war hero" doesn't get written up on drunk-and-disorderly, fraternization, disobeying orders, and insubordination charges more than two dozen times in less than three years.

A "war hero" doesn't get promoted to squadron commander of the air field named after his own grandfather immediately after crashing his third airplane.



A "war hero" doesn't have all the military records that cover his time in Vietnam and all disciplinary actions against him censored and sealed "as a matter of national security."

A "war hero" doesn't get 28 medals awarded all after-the-fact "for bravery" for no other reason than being shot down and captured and then go on a celebrity public relations tour because he's the son of two acclaimed Navy admirals.

A "war hero" doesn't repeatedly cheat on the wife who's back in the states waiting for him, and then cheat on her more when he returns to the states, and then divorce and abandon her.

A "war hero" doesn't systematically vote against every single pay and benefit increase for military and veterans throughout his entire political career, all the while claiming to be "the soldier's Congressman," and then take credit for the passage of a G.I. benefits bill he that voted AGAINST.

A "war hero" McCain III lost jet number one in 1958 when he plunged into Corpus Christi Bay while practicing landings. He was knocked unconscious by the impact coming to as the plane settled to the bottom.
McCain's second crash occurred while he was deployed in the Mediterranean. "Flying too low over the Iberian Peninsula," Timberg wrote, "he took out some power lines [reminiscent of the 1998 incident in which a Marine Corps jet sliced through the cables of a gondola at an Italian ski resort, killing 20] which led to a spate of newspaper stories in which he was predictably identified as the son of an admiral."
McCain's third crash three occurred when he was returning from flying a Navy trainer solo to Philadelphia for an Army-Navy football game.
Timberg reported that McCain radioed, "I've got a flameout" and went through standard relight procedures three times before ejecting at one thousand feet. McCain landed on a deserted beach moments before the plane slammed into a clump of trees.

McCain's fifth loss happened during his 23rd mission over North Vietnam on Oct. 26, 1967, when McCain's A-4 Skyhawk was shot down by a surface-to-air missile. McCain ejected from the plane breaking both arms and a leg in the process and subsequently parachuted into Truc Bach Lake near Hanoi.
For 23 combat missions (an estimated 20 hours over enemy territory), the U.S. Navy awarded McCain a Silver Star, a Legion of Merit for Valor, a Distinguished Flying Cross, three Bronze Stars, two Commendation medals plus two Purple Hearts and a dozen service medals.
"McCain had roughly 20 hours in combat," explains Bill Bell, a veteran of Vietnam and former chief of the U.S. Office for POW/MIA Affairs -- the first official U.S. representative in Vietnam since the 1973 fall of Saigon. "Since McCain got 28 medals," Bell continues, "that equals out to about a medal-and-a-half for each hour he spent in combat. There were infantry guys -- grunts on the ground -- who had more than 7,000 hours in combat and I can tell you that there were times and situations where I'm sure a prison cell would have looked pretty good to them by comparison. The question really is how many guys got that number of medals for not being shot down."
For years, McCain has been an unchecked master at manipulating an overly friendly and biased news media. The former POW turned Congressman, turned U.S. Senator, has managed to gloss over his failures as a pilot by exaggerating his military service and lying about his feats of heroism.
McCain has sprouted a halo and wings to become America's POW-hero presidential candidate.

When asked a question at the saddleback forum Obama said " Thats above my pay scale"......what a stupid answer to any question by a presidential candidate. The forum should have been renamed the brokeback forum because bumbling Obama got "buggered"..... McCain was powerfull in his responces the way a president should be. If i was an obama supportor, i would be totally embarassed by his performance at the brokeback forum. If this forum didnt show everybody that is leaning about their vote, this debate should show you the way >......McCain 08

Obama, no clarity but a 'sense' of authenticity. Thoughtful intellect.

McCain, clarity and actual authenticity. Thoughtful intellectual ACTIONS.

No small wonder McCain has this election won.

I think you are pretty much on the moneyabout McCain. But I didn't like the stories. I wanted to his positions on issues, something he dodges most of the time. He was definitely answering to that audience, rather than his prior positions. So the way I see it is that McCain is moving further to the right. While this might help him get elected, will this make him a truly successful candidate? It seem he thinks Obama isn't experienced enough. but what has experience given us in the last 8 years. Being an experienced electrician doesn't mean you are up to date with the latest technology.

SORRY OBAMA. MOST AMERICANS DO NOT SUPPORT ISLAMIC TERRORISTS(HAMAS) ---- DO NOT SUPPORT DOMESTIC TERRORISTS(WILLIAM AYERS)--DO NOT SUPPORT RACISTS AND BIGOTS(REV WRIGHT, FLEGER, FARAKAN)---DO NOT SUPPORT HIGHER OIL PRICES---GIVING ILLEGALS HEALTH INSURANCE--GIVING CHILD RAPISTS MORE RIGHTS---YOU ARE A DANGER OBAMA!

dave........good analysis....from someone who does not care one bit for Mccain, nor obama.......I believe what settled the score is when Mccain said on the issue of life......."at the moment of conception".....christians ate that right up, bigtime.......that phrase will remain in their minds when they vote come election time

I watched the entire forum. I walked away with more opinions regarding Obama's performance than McCain. First off let me say that I don't question the fact that Obama is intelligent and I think he's both ethical and honest.

That is not enough however to qualify Obama as a strong Presidential candidate, far from it. Obama's biggest issue his lack of experience. He does not have any foreign affairs or military experience. He does not have any excutive level experience. He has never been in charge of anything. Sorry but this should be a requirement for the job. He has been a less than average performing Senator for only three years. Actually during the past three years he has 44% of his votes. If you did not show up for work 44% of the time would you still have a job. I guess if your boss were a Democrat you would be promoted because that's what the Democrats are offering Obama.

I was impressed by Obama's honesty in the forum, but he had difficulty answering a number of questions, that a more qualified candidate such as McCain did not.

I think you are pretty much on the money about McCain. But I didn't like the stories. I wanted to his positions on issues, something he dodges most of the time. He was definitely answering to that audience, rather than his prior positions. So the way I see it is that McCain is moving further to the right. While this might help him get elected, will this make him a truly successful candidate? It seem he thinks Obama isn't experienced enough. but what has experience given us in the last 8 years. Being an experienced electrician doesn't mean you are up to date with the latest technology.

I think your assessment was fair. The audience in that church was already in McCain's favor, yet Obama did better than I expected. Yes, his answers were more cautious and thoughtful; given his training in the law, that seems to make sense. I thought McCain performed well, but I thought his stories about Vietnam were complete pandering, but no doubt the right wing eats this stuff up, as they did his promising to be a 'pro-life' president.

I have a problem with someone who is suppose to be a Christian yet endorces abortion and civil unions. What bible is he reading?

BHO looks and sounds like an idiot without his teleprompter.This man is clearly unfit to be commander and chief.The DNC by now must know they nominated a fool.BHO can not answer a question without someone writing it down for him.If anyone would be honest with themselves McCain made BHO look like he was senile. VOTE MCCAIN COUNTRY FIRST!!

Wasn't that the whole idea for this forum? To see how each candidate handles tough questions? To see how their minds work?

And why even bring up Hillary's name in this AT ALL? I appreciate your honesty about not liking McCain, but trying throw a zinger like Hillary to get the focus off of flip-flopping freaking loser Obummer is weak.

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Obama was his usual self, quick thinking, nimble, and definitely not easily trapped by what were a veritable minefield of questions. The conventional wisdom seems to be that McCain got the better of Obama, and he did, but let's not forget what Hillary would have looked like in this forum: dreadful.

Obama came off as having weak answers because he couldn't remember what his stance was suppose to be THIS WEEK as opposed to LAST WEEK. What a joke! Obama's lack of integrity would be laughable if it wasn't so pathetic.

McCain ate his lunch... Obama just doesnt have it, he cant think on his feet, he's RIGHT... the President is above his pay-scale....mercy... McCain will kill this idiot on the election...

The Democrats shoot themsleves every year, and Im a Democrat...my lord.... this Obama is sooooo weak..

I agree. America doesn' want either one of these jokers. They have been foisted on us by the "elite". Ordinary people should hold alternative Dem and Repub conventions and decide their write in candidate.

I supported Hillary, and now I support John McCain. McCain is not my number one choice, but anything is better than what Nancy Pelosi and Howard Dean chose. Obama has no substance. He kept pausing and interrupting and saying his "well..... look...." line. Obama has been caught making so many mistakes it's laughable. He couldn't run a country if it sat in his lap and called him mama. And then we have Michelle. "For the first time in my adult life, I'm proud of my country!" Boy.... there's a good patriot.

McCain was a hero. McCain may favor the rich, take money from oil executives, and want to stay in Iraq, but if he gets in, Hillary can run again in 2012. I want to see the DEM. Convention is shambles. I want Howard Dean to know that 18 million people matter. I want him to know that there are black people in the Republican Party (since he thinks there's only white).