Anti-Christmas Message in Washington State Capitol Holiday Display

Who are these folks getting their panties in a tuft? Who has walked by any religious display at our beautiful, peaceful season of giving and got offended? Just keep walkin...really.

LV Drummer 9:56PM Dec 1st 2008 wrote:

>Who has walked by any religious display at our beautiful,
>peaceful season of giving and got offended?

I have, frequently. Your "beautiful, peaceful season of giving," and the religion it represents, has resulted in "giving" death to millions of people, including more than a few relatives whom I never knew as a result. (And don't give me the "Hitler was an atheist" meme. As discussed to death on the dear departed Dinesh d'Souza blogs, Hitler may personally have been an atheist, but the Nazi state was explicitly Christian. In any case, Hitler was far from the first case of Christians masscring non-Christians (or "the wrong kind" of Christians), of all sorts. It's essentially as old as the religion itself, or at least ever since it first became a state religion rather than itself a persecuted minority. (Rome, Constantine, 4th century; also the Council of Nicaea around that time, and the ensuing persecution of Arians. Not to mention the ongoing persecution of Gnostics / Cathars / Albigensians / Bogomils, and all sorts of other "heretics." And of course the old favorite, Jews. And Muslims once they came along.) Not that Christianity is the only religion to do this, of course.) Forgive me for feeling excluded, to say the least, from your "beautiful, peaceful season," and yes, frequently offended by its public displays.


Mark wrote:

>Decisions like Washington State's to allow virtually any
>political or religious display on state ground will not
>satisfy critics on either side. Religious groups will seek
>more and bigger displays in future years, and atheist groups
>will follow suit.

And you know that it "will not satisfy" exactly how? After a little adjustment period, nobody has had a problem with menorahs alongside Nativity scenes, etc. Why won't the same happen for any other "religion," including atheism, Wicca, Pastafarianism, Norse Brahminism (don't ask), or that silly one that just reached the SCOTUS from Utah? Might get a little crowded, I admit, but isn't the public square supposed to be precisely where the "free exchange of ideas" takes place? How will that happen if government gets to decide which ideas are worth displaying?

>A simpler solution would have been to allow the Christmas
>display unfettered with an official statement declaring it to
>be placed by a private citizen rather than the state
>government.

Might work, if the disclaimer were big enough. But would the private citizen accept that? In any case, that still leads to the "crowding" problem, because, as in the Utah case, why can the government stop any *other* private citizen from "placing" a different message?

>What they conveniently overlook is that the same >Establishment Clause which prevents a state sanctioned church
>also prevents the government from limiting the "free
>exercise" of religion.

And how is putting up an atheist plaque limiting anybody's free exercise?

>Instead, state officials will now include an offensive
>message of intolerance as part of their official holiday
>celebration.

Who's intolerant (let alone offensive) here? Criticism and rational argument are a far cry from intolerance. Why are you so afraid of letting them in?

In any case, you (and Washington State, and Utah) can't have it both ways. If the state considers the Nativity scene to be its "official holiday celebration," then it *is* establishment of religion, whoever "placed" it. If it's really a placement by a "private citizen rather than the state government," then how is what another private citizen places next to it "part of [the state's] official holiday celebration"? (If I were the Utah group's lawyer, I would have argued both of those points, in addition to the argument they did make about denial of equal protection to the second private citizen.)

NOT THAT I DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD BUT I'VE NEVER SEEN SANTA CLAUS. THE EASTER BUNNY, THE TOOTH FAIRY, JESUS CHRIST, BIG FOOT ETC. NOW CHILDREN ALL OVER THE WORLD BELIEVE IN SANTA, AND THE EASTER BUNNY. SOME BELIEVE IN THE TOOTH FAIRY. SOME PEOPLE THINK THEY ARE GOING TO HEAVEN,SOME TO HELL. SOME THOUGHT THE WORLD WAS FLAT AT ONE TIME. THERE IS ALWAYS SOMEONE WHO IS GONNA BE AFFENDED BY SOMETHING. BUT I DID SLEEP AT A HOLIDAY INN EXPRESS LAST NIGHT AND I SAW 2 HOOKERS KNOCKING AT THE DOOR NEXT TO MINE.

dr jay
Dude, sounds a little obsessive..just my opinion...Maybe try Rastafarianism for a bit. Merry Christmas & a prosporous New Year for you.

Thank you dr jay, very well put. Why is it that people don't want you to trample on their rights and at the same time want to deny you your rights? I've never understood that. Happy Holidays to everyone!

All you need to do is put up signs in front of the displays !! 1. for Santa( kids) 1 . for menorha( Jewish) 1. Nativity ( Christains )

1. Blank spot for( Atheist )
Now everyone has a say !!

I think my lil' brother is an atheist.
I just do my best to reassure him that the gods are all catholic and that everyone else is a heretic and that burning stakes could solve a lot of problems.
my mother tried to turn jewish on us when she found out that they get more christmas presents than we do.
jews get 7 presents at christmas.

THE REASON YOU ARE OFFENDED BY IT IS BECAUSE OF GUILT

dr jay

Do you come by your intellectual arrogance and dishonesty naturally? Or, is it (as I believe it to be) a sadly cultivated trait of a very lonely and unhappy little person?

It must be extremely difficult for you to contemplate your own mortality. Do you envision a county vehicle carrying the remains of a friendless and bitter individual to an unmarked resting place in potters field?

I can’t begin to appreciate your self loathing. You may still have time to overcome decades of rejection. Seek help!

what i fail to understand is that if you are an athiest and nothing exists but this "natural world", then why the arguments? what exactly are you fighting for when, in reality, you are saying there is nothing out there to live for?

I WAS RAISED AS A CHRISTIAN FROM THE SOUTHERN BAPTIST DENOMINATION.I CONVERTED OR REVERTED TO ISLAM 12 YEARS AGO.I STUDIED FOR YEARS BEFORE I MADE MY DECISION TO ACCEPT ISLAM AND TO THIS DAY I AM A STUDENT OF COMPARATIVE.I AM A VERY ANALYTICAL AND STUDIOUS INDIVIDUAL AND THROUGH MY EXTENSIVE STUDIES I WAS ASTONISHED TO FIND THAT CHRISTMAS,EASTER AND OTHER SO-CALLED CHRISTIAN HOLIDAYS ARE FROM PAGANISTIC ORIGINS.IN FACT,EVEN THE DOCTRINE OF ORIGINAL SIN,THE DEITY OF JESUS,THE TRINITY,THE SONSHIP,AND THE CRUCIFIXION DERIVED FROM STORIES OF PAGAN RELIGIONS AND DIETIES A COUPLE THOUSAND YEARS BEFORE JESUS WAS BORN.FROM THE STORY OF THE THREE MAGI'S(STARGAZERS)TO THE ROMAN CROSS(A SYMBOL OF MALE DOMINATION I.E.TWO PENISES BELONGING TO TWO-THIRDS OF THE EGYPTIAN TRINITY "HORUS AND OSIRIS"),THE FALSEHOODS GO ON AND ON.ACCORDING TO THEIR OWN BIBLE THESE CELEBRATIONS ARE FROM AN UNGODLY PEOPLE AND IF THE CHRISTIANS ARE THE "TRUE" FOLLOWERS OF THE CHRIST THEY PROCLAIM TO BE,THEN THEY SHOULD HAVE NO PROBLEM SHUNNING THESE UNGODLY HOLIDAYS.

The atheist plaque was, I think, intentionally rude and not in the spirit of the holidays. I think a more secularly humanistic message would have been more effective than a snide reminder that the basis of the holiday is fictional. You can have your beliefs without belittling the beliefs of others. That goes for theists and athiests alike.

For my two cents, I think it far better for state agencies and property to remain decidedly neutral and secular when it comes to faith and displays of that faith. Let churches and private property set up big impressive religious displays. The state does not have to spend the money backing beliefs that have little business in their day to day opperation.

Let them have their silly display. Nobody pays attention to it anyway, any more than they do to the rantings of scores of nuts holding "the world will come to an end" signs on street corners in New York. The general public knows what they believe in, and fruitcakes with signs don't have any influence on them.

atheists and jews. the death of a once proud nation built on beliefs that were just fine til....they came along

So many people want their rights...that are being challenged and chipped away daily. The time will come that soon... NOONE WILL HAVE ANY RIGHTS. This is not far fetched if you think about it. George Orwell writer wrote something along those lines I think. Group think and do is here.

Unfortunately, this battle will wage on for years and years. At the end of the day, both sides of this argument are being ridiculous and childish. Yes, while religious displays like the manger scene do not offend most reasonable people, let's be blunt - most atheists deeply offend most otherwise reasonable people.
There are no easy answers here.

easy to solve... just stop by Christmas gift and watch what happenes to retailers. Dr Jay.. it wasn't Christians who killed the Jews, it was a twisted political regime with twisted minds. Please read your foolish replies before posting. You sound like an idiot

Now.. Naji Sayheed, here we have a man who really did some research. or um... is just plan brainwashed. There is no religion in this world more violent and or no more paganisitic than Islam. Where the hell are you coming from with these obscure statements... oops that's right from hell.

atheist & others' capitol holiday display news:- can christians do same in muslim majority indonesia/pakistan, in jewish majority countries - no. usa is christian majority country - christians should feel comfortable - christian things should dominate. jan 1 christian calendar - year 2009 a.d. (after christ not after alluh)
HAPPY NEWY YEAR & MERRY CHRISTMAS USA. chant chant chant

Thank God (oops - sorry if that offended anyone) we've got all the really crucial issues taken care of so we can spend time and money making sure no one is offended by a manger scene on public property.

BTW, for those of you who are easily offended by religious symbology or text on government property, I'll be more than happy to take those offensive articles out of your wallet for you, free of charge.