GOP Senators Come Out Against Bailout Bill

Democrats are painting this "kick the can down the road" mess as the Bush administration passing this off to poor Obama when Democrats know over 50% of Americans oppose an auto industry bailout yet Democrats are indebted to the unions, their many votes and $450 million in campaign contributions.

There are enough smart Democrats in Washington to know full well our auto industry can not build cars profitability with $73.21 per hour labor costs, nearly double what US "imports" pay their workers in southern US auto plants to do the same job on top of an additional $1,500 PER CAR in legacy pension costs.

Billions of dollars will NOT make our auto industry profitable. Our auto industry will not retool and all of a sudden build "green" cars any more profitability than they currently build small gasoline powered cars with $73.21 per hour labor costs and $1,500 per car legacy costs.

Nice touch, the "Car Czar" will be appointed by the Bush administration. I wonder how that will turn out.
In March the auto industry will still be unprofitable, they will still need billions to "save millions of jobs" through the "ripple effect" and Democrats can blame the Bush appointed "Car Czar."

The government should use the 15 billion to guarantee manufacturer warrenties for consumers and that suppliers will be paid while the auto industry continues to manufacture cars and does business while they go through Chapter 11.
In this way people who know HOW to restructure corporate debt will run the show, not politicans looking out for themselves or an auto industry powerless to help itself when it is saddled with union contracts and high labor costs.

Respectfully,
Pete

Damn, there goes my GM stock--again!!!

The Democratic objective is to create a law where the UAW becomes a ward of the taxpayers.This is the ideal political payback situation which will create perpetual jobs with unlimited taxpayer subsidized raises and benefits producing unlimited dues which will perpetuate the Democratic Party.WOW,what a deal!The question to be answered:If in the last ten years the 3 firms which require a cash handout to survive,could not earn enough profit to remain viable,how could they possibly turn around such a failed business in the next 24 months?

$73.21 per hour labor costs


xxx

short circuit in your foil helmet there? That's an out and out lie and you should know it by now, but did you know Obama's middle name is Hussein? Did you know he's a Muslim and his minister is a terrorist? dija, dija, huh?

The senators who came out against the bailout bill are protecting their manufacturing clients in Japan. We're back to good ole 1860's sectionalism again with the south trying to involve itself in foreign entanglements at the expense of the north. Save yer confederate money boys, the south will sink to the bottom again!

Millions of Americans have lost and are loosing jobs. In our area ( So. Illinois) factory workers have taken a 20% reduction in pay to keep working. Why in hell do judges need a raise? When Obama was elected I thought he said that we are in this together. Apparently he meant us not them (politicians). So if one works for the gov't. its raises all around. If you are one that pays for these raises (ie. the American tax payer.)then its good luck hope you make it. Is anyone else outraged at this pork policy?

Pete8:37PMDec 10th 2008 said "...The government should use the 15 billion to guarantee manufacturer warrenties for consumers and that suppliers will be paid while the auto industry continues to manufacture cars and does business while they go through Chapter 11. In this way people who know HOW to restructure corporate debt will run the show, not politicans looking out for themselves or an auto industry powerless to help itself when it is saddled with union contracts and high labor costs."
--------------------
Pete, I completely agree with your statement here. While I don't agree that high labor costs bear all or most of the responsibility, I don agree that bankruptcy and restructuring is the correct way to go.

Also, sorry I jumped on you yesterday about the whole "dems in control and the economy goes in the toilet in 2 years" thing - while I don't always agree with the arguments that you make, I should have given you credit for not just repeating the same old tired soundbites I get tired of hearing from people. Sorry!

Ooops, typing too fast - it should read "I DO agree that bankruptcy and restructuring is the correct way to go."

Pete, I completely agree with your statement here. While I don't agree that high labor costs bear all or most of the responsibility, I don agree that bankruptcy and restructuring is the correct way to go.


xxx

the cost of assembling a new car in Detroit breaks down as follows: Labor, including benefits, 10%, Materials, 50%, Management 40%.

There is no dispute from anyone about that breakdown. That's what it is.

Southern senators are trying to protect their foreign investors.

Union busting and destruction of the middle class is part of the republican dream of a thousand years' rule as rove called it, or reich as his spiritual model called it.

It's also what toppled us to where we find ourselves today, but it's the only game the republican party knows.

Cliff

Unlike you I don't make this stuff up. The following is a quote from the November 18th 2008 Investors Business Daily article entitled:

"If No Givebacks, Then No Bailout"

"When you fold in heatlh care, pensions, hourly pay, vacations, and the rest average total compensation for a Big Three autoworker is $73.21 an hour, according to data cited by University of Michagan economist Mark Perry.
Toyota, Honda and Nissan pay a still-generous $44.20 an hour in total compensation - a cost edge of nearly 40%."

In addition FACTS I've quoted before are from this same article:

"Japan's Big Three - Honda, Nissan and Toyota - Make anywhere from $900 to $1,600 in pretax profit on each car they make in North America (mostly in southeastern states, with non-union contracts). America's Big Three, by comparison, LOSE anywhere from $400 to $1,500."

Out and out lie???

I trust Mark Perry, University of Michagan economist than a kool-aid swiller like you Cliff, sorry.

"republican dream of a thousand years rule as rove called it, or reich...."
Thanks for making my point again Cliff.

Respectfully,
Pete

Bas

No apologies necessary!!!

I did not mean to come across as Democrats are entirely to blame for everything wrong with the economy since they took control of Congress, just that the timing of such is a FACT that some kool-aid swillers can't deny.

Very Respectfully,
Pete

"When you fold in heatlh care, pensions, hourly pay, vacations, and the rest average total compensation for a Big Three autoworker is $73.21 an hour, according to data cited by University of Michagan economist Mark Perry.
Toyota, Honda and Nissan pay a still-generous $44.20 an hour in total compensation - a cost edge of nearly 40%."


xxx

Pete, this is pure crap. Don't give me some unknown economists' baseless speculation.

If you want to know what the pay is, read the union contracts and check the payroll records. This isn't something you need an 'economist' for.

I've heard this over and over and over on tv and radio the past few days and it breaks down this way. I saw it twice tonight in fact.

the uaw line worker gets about $28 per hour including benefits and the only non union workers for the foreign manufacturers, which are in tennessee, alabama and miss make less.

They are also states with lower costs of living than Michigan in states that get more back from the government than they pay in.

I've heard that on every major news network and every cable news network from literally dozens of experts.

You have one guy and he's full of it, whoever he is.

Not one of you can produce a single UAW worker who makes that. Go ahead and try.

Meanwhile your heroes in this fiasco are the southern senators who represent foreign interests against american ones, the south against the Union like always.

I think it's arguable there's some subconscious conflation of hatreds in the word 'union' since the hatred is willfully anti american and sectionalist.

These corporatists make no secret about who they represent - the German manufacturers (who are unionized in Germany) the Japanese manufacturers (who are unionized in Japan) and the Korean manufacturers.

They all outsource to us because our labor is cheap in the south and they can find senators who are willing to collude with them to obtain a greater global market share by busting the unions and destroying Yankee jobs and auto manufacturers.

This collusion includes land giveaways and tax abatements while Americans have to pick up the bill for the foreign manufacturers' use of the Commons.

It is as slimy as anything republicans have ever been involved in, and it is a perfect representation of what patriotic Americans loathe about neoconservatism, viz. your proclivity for destroying the American working class at the expense of national security (if you let Detroit get parted out to china, we can't manufacture what we need to defend ourselves) and to the benefit of offshore corporations that have no interest in the united states save exploitation.

they and you if you support them are selling out our nation. You throw millions of people out of work and then tell them to get a job. They may see YOU as their job.

Ever think of that?

Twice in my life I've been in situations where poor people had had enough, had no more to lose and rose up violently.

There were too many to be controlled, the government was powerless, there was chaos and people died.

That's what happens when you push people to the point they have nothing more to lose. They'll come after what YOU have.

Republicans never get that, and tyrants often die because they don't get that either.

First, do you want around ten million people loose going hungry because of what you've done? there's no army on earth that could control that, and it's mostly in areas you couldn't anyway - urban.

Second, do you want ten dollar an hour employees building the dangerous instrumentality you're going to be buying, insuring and driving?

You want the same people who put melamine in infant formula looking out for your safety?

We have as our national mission statement, our reason for forming this union a couple of objectives antiliberal elements try to ignore in keeping domestic tranquility and promoting the general welfare.

In realtime if you abandon and disenfranchise millions of people they aren't going to mill around quietly wringing their hands. They'll look out for their children and families and come after what you have.

Nothing will save you from that but your own humanity. Abandon it, and you'll spend the remainder of your days in hard scrabble.

Unions have nothing to do with design and marketing decisions, and their entire cost is 10% of an automobile compared to 40% for management.

It is necessary to regulate management since they can't regulate themselves, but none of you have even come close to making a case against the unions.

And I'm calling you on this seventy buck per hour straw man. Produce just ONE line worker making that.

Why do you want to destroy the working class? Who is supposed to be left when you do? Why not just smoke crack and have HIV+ sex or be a suicide bomber instead?

Even without this, I've worried about civil war. Now it's not rural v. urban but back to north v. south. It's a real possibility. It's happened in my lifetime and tension is worse now by a factor of hundreds.

did not mean to come across as Democrats are entirely to blame for everything wrong with the economy since they took control of Congress, just that the timing of such is a FACT that some kool-aid swillers can't deny.

xxx

an irrelevant 'fact' which I dare you to deny.

Pete your a moron. There is NO credit market for anyone right now ,so where will this bankruptcy credit come from dummy? You Hate unions, you hate the rest of the country ,WHY ,because my grandfather kicked your southern grandfathers butt in 1865 ! Get over it already and go to work in your $7 an hour poverty hillbilly life in Alabama .

Cliff

Cliff here is where your narrow view of the 'whats in it for me world' clouds your vision:

It is NOT my contention any UAW auto worker "makes that", it is however my contention supported by U of M economist Mark Perry and what you have heard on TV over and over and over that is what labor costs are for THE DETROIT AUTO COMPANIES per hour. With job banks paying laid off workers 95% of their base pay for up to 2 years for doing NOTHING or community volunteer the unions have finally sucked the teets off the cow. When the cow finally dies whose fault will it be? Some CEO who built pickups and big SUV's that was the last vehicles they could still build at a profit with $73.21 per hour labor??

"The UAW line worker gets about $28 per hour including benifits....."

Wrong Cliff and all those people saying the same thing on TV ARE NOT just making these FACTS up either. Those "talking heads" on TV have their reputations at stake to be quoting the wrong information over and over and over on TV.

FACTS: UAW auto worker make $73.21 per hour in TOTAL compensation while US auto workers in southern auto plants make $44,20 per hour in total compensation.

US "imports enjoy a 40% edge in labor costs, that CLiff is the botton line.

Thank you for making my point, AGAIN, the stats I've quoted are the same ones heard on TV over and over and over again, I heard them too, on TV lately, and when I was typing them days and weeks ago.

Thanks again.

Respectfully,
Pete

SFB

The bankrupcy credit, SFB, will come from the 15 billion the government wants to hand over the the auto companies.
Instead of giving this to the unions, I mean auto companies, they should allow the auto companies to file Chapeter 11 and the government then uses the 15 billion to make good on manufacuter warrenties and gaurantee suppliers get paid so the auto companies can continue to make cars and do business, just like the airlens did after 9/11.

In this way SFB, the auto companies corporate debt can be restructured by people who know what they are doing in Chapter 11 and not by politicans doing whats best for them and selling bullshit to dipshits like you.

Pete.

P.S. SFB wrong again, I was born, raised and live in the Northeast.

Yeah ,Pete but mom and pop and grandpa born and raised in Alabama though huh. Your a dumb ass . That $15 billion wouldn't be peanuts for GM in bankruptcy because GM buys $300 BILLION parts from suppliers alone . Then when GM's 5,000 suppliers like Delphi, Tower ,Dana ,American ,etc.,went into bankruptcy from not being paid,they would have to have Government money too .GM is this countries biggest holder of commercial bonds too ,almost $1 TRILLION in outstanding bonds held by the big banks that would be wiped out in bankruptcy and cause ANOTHER Trillion dollar bank bailout. It also has 1 million retirees that in bankruptcy would now have to be paid by the federal government at a cost of $30 Billion a year . And those retirees would now fall into government health care and all the bills currently due would not be paid to hospitals,doctors,etc. And GM also has almost 10,000 dealers that employ 400,000 people and are the biggest source of sales tax in states ,counties and cities, so the government would have to spends BILLIONS there too. And then the loss of Taxes ,including FICA,unemployment,Income . And what about GMAC real estate and all the unemployment and lost wages and taxes,that would really help the foreclosures too huh. And you think $15 billion would do anything at all in bankruptcy ? You cannot be that stupid ,CAN YOU ?

For all you dummies out there ,a UAW workers makes $28.29 an hour . If you add in anyones health care and pension that ever worked for GM ,even for instance in 1966 ,thats alive today to get the total of $70 that you talk of ,then do the same for the Japanese worker too . But you don't do you . All you add is the poverty wages that the hill billy's down south work for huh. USE THE SAME FORMULA FOR JAPANESE WAGES TOO ! Add all the workers in Japan presently working ,all the retired workers in Japan and all the taxes paid to the government for the national health care in Japan too. You'll find its probably higher than $70 ,because ALL workers in Japan ARE UNIONIZED and get HIGHER WAGES THAN GM 's WORKERS DO .Its only in the USA that people are dumb enough to work in Japanese car factories for poverty wages and non-union . Even the Japanese people are not stupid enough to do that , only USA southerners . Why is that ? Is the south that uninformed.

To the guy that states Pete is a moron, they people with Kia told us, they start people out at a lower amount yes right on that but what you dont know is that person gets paid a good wage after he shows he merits the raise, and yes they probably are Union in Japan, you know how much it takes to live in Japan? More than it does here.  The problem is, is we CAN DO SO MUCH BETTER, BUT WE AREN'T AND WHY BECAUSE OF GREED.

And dont talk to me, Millions for bonuses?  Huh, keep that money in the Company.  I dont know who you are but we do have a right to our Opinion, you know, just like you do.

Japan costs far less to live in relation to their autoworker pay than in Georgia . Because the Japanese government pays for your College bills,Health care ,medicine and your pension .Kathy its ALL carmakers in the USA that are dying ,including the Japanese and Koreans ,because of NO Credit for car buyers and Corporate bonds and paper.It has NOTHING to do with wages at all .IT IS THE LACK OF CREDIT ! Google Kia and see that their sales are down in October and November more than 65% in the USA ,and Kias,Toyotas ,Hondas are being parked all over California shipping ports because there are`no sales for them either. Google "Toyota,Honda,Kia parked all over California." The are also rumors that Kia will delay full production at that plant in Georgia because of the 65% loss of USA sales in November and October . And Toyota stopped construction on the Prius plant in Mississippi because Prius sales are down 80% also . And all the southern plants talked about are big time laying off people and cutting shifts and this is only the very beginning .And most important , how long due you think KIA will pay what they do now if GM wages come way down or GM is gone ? The minute that there is no GM wages to worry about ,no reason to keep the wages up to keep the UAW from organizing Kia is there ? And Kia knows that the Employee check card law which O'Bama actually wrote and is one of his MAIN goals to enact , is coming with O'Bama in January and will make unionizing the southern plants much ,much easier . Then you'll work at Kia and have a union ,a pension ,and make that same $29.92 that GM workers do . Imagine making $29.92 an hour in Georgia !