Rick Warren Thinks He Isn't Anti-Gay; He Isn't Not Wrong

here's the big problem for me. Evangelical is an interesting catch-all term, that has come down to the point in the liberal media that it is not equal to nut case, racist, bigot, etc. Now grant it there are Evangelicals who are nut cases, racists, and bigots. Of course there are. And unfortunatly many of these Evangelicals who are the nut cases and racists and bigots have the biggest mouths as well, or certainly get more play in the press.

I was raised very Conservative Christian -- some might say one step away from snake handlers. I've wittnessed faith healing, speaking in tongues, dancing in the spirit and various other things that would probably make many members of the left go running into the woods pulling their hair and screaming. But guess what I never heard while I attended church in Ponce de Leon, Missouri at the Pentacostal church. I NEVER heard racist comments of any kind. I NEVER heard anti-Jewish comments of any kind -- in fact members of the congregations were very supportive of the Jewish state. And I can't ever recall while I was growing up ever hearing any sermons dealing with homosexuality.

I understand you might hear that now -- but there has been a tremendous attack on the Evangelicals from the liberal, gay, athiest community, and even the most respectful Evangelical some times forgets to turn the other cheek.

Do I think there aren't gay bashers out there? Of course there are. Just as Hilter used his hate to bring together the masses, there are Evangelicals who present another kind of hate to bring together the people against a common enemy, these are the same people who on the left bring together religious bigots who attack people for their beliefs, these are the same people who inflame the gay community so much so that gay people are physically attacking others for their beliefs. These are the same people who scream about McCarthyism and the black list, but who have their own back lists if you don't support their cause.

I guess what I'm saying is people all over Evangelicals, athiest, gays, straights all have sad people who must attack others to feel better and feel superior.

At this Christmas Time, I remember my mother Lucinda Wilhelm, about as good a Pentacostal woman as you could find (she was what was known as a flannel board lady). Her two things were to not judge anyone. Just worry about yourself. And to never let the sun go down on your wrath. Maybe I'm one of those truly fortunate people who was raised without hate or prejudice. It was not tolerated in my Penticostal home. I suppose for those of you who don't know what a Penticostal is another word you have for what my parents were is Holy Rollers. It was deep in the Missouri Ozarks. A lot of the writers on the net call us Rednecks, and hillbillies.

But at this Christmastime, the one thing I know is my parents taught me GOD IS LOVE. It doesn't matter what your faith, that's not a bad tenet to believe in.

Happy and Merry.

I am a Casual Catholic who is pro-choice and pro- Gay Rights. I strongly believe America was founded by patriots filled with the Spirit of the Enlightenment that believed religion has no place in our laws or government.

So I object to these phony huckster preachers using their pulpits to dictate to America like they speak for all of us. America has more Moslems than Mormons, as well as Buddhists, Jews and Atheists. Who declared this guy Pope?

Tell him to stick to feeding the poor! There's much more about that in the Bible, than messages about persecuting Gays.

Thanks Tommy, you make a lot of sense and have put the issue intelligently and logically where it belongs. Gays can be flexible and forgiving...to a point. Why do right wing conservative bigots feel so inflexible and threatened by gays? Do they think their whole world will crumble if they give in to equality on one subject? As for Rick Warren, let him have his moment in the sunshine. I think the REAL issue is what Obama does AFTER he gets into office on the subject of gay equality. Look out "don't ask, don't tell"!

Rick Warren is not simply an outright liar, he is intellectually dishonest. He tries to justify his lies with circular reasoning and straw-man logic. I find that to be more malicious than your everyday liar.

Warren states that everyone should be treated equally but that marriage for a gay couple is different. Why? The definition of marriage in the Bible and is a historically uniform notion that crosses all lines of religion. The counterargument ensues that either: 1) If the Bible is to be construed literally, than all sorts of relationships are acceptable; and 2)Who says the Bible is correct? His response would be the Bible has been around for thousands of years and is therefore correct. That is a straw-man argument or a tautology. How he would respond to polygamy in the Old and New Testament, pre-arranged marriages, stonings, the marriage of minors etc... Warren must pigeonhole to show the Bible's evolution in criminalizing such behavior in perhaps The New Testament or various teachings by The Church. That is called a post-hoc fallacy. He's stacking the deck. Creating reasoning (out of Holy cloth) to reach the conclusions he thinks are justified.

A similar conundrum exists when interpreting the Constitution with an eye towards The Framer's intentions and the utilization of strict construction. "All Men are created equal." Blacks, under Dred Scott, were 2/3 of a person, and prior to that, chattel. Principles of Dowry, seisin, and women as a property concept. Those views were around for thousands of years as well. Relatively speaking, only recently did that change. Why? Reason. Not dogma. Reason and smart Supreme Court Justices.

I think we are on the precipice of figuring this out. Analogizing over to civil rights for African American's is a fine vehicle to drive this not-so crooked road. History is important for that purpose. I'd say we are right at the period before Brown v. Board in 1954 for gay rights. A sort of Jim Crow period for gays. The argument Warren espouses is very similar. Separate, but equal. Yet, separate but equal is inherently unequal.

If Warren did not use circular reasoning, a lot of actions and relationships could be considered Bible-worthy. Polygamy. Marrying children. Killing someone for taking the Lords name in vain dammit. Eye for an eye punishment. Logically, one cannot exclude those actions upon literal interpretation of the Bible.

Bottom line: I don't think one should be giving the invocation when myself or Tommy or a lot of heathens like us could out-debate this guy. He doesn't pass the blog test, and that's (without denigrating myself or blogging) crazy relative to presidential invocations. In a fair fight (with logicians and reasonable people) I'd smash this guy. Metaphorically speaking of course.

Going to a gay event, doesn't mean one is pro-gay rights (he also danced around the civil union question in my opinion). A president having offspring from slaves, doesn't mean that president furthered the civil rights of blacks. Just because Warren says, "Fuck You," with a smile, doesn't make it a happy, warm and inviting, "Fuck You."

Why do preachers feel the need to get involved in politics? Warren should stick to what he does best - hustling his flock for their money.

I'm down with headlines one needs to multiply by -1. Integers are groovy.

The LAProgressive.com site has published a variety of progressive thoughts about how bad Warren is.

On Wednesday, the site put up a featured article by Tom Hall suggesting a different look at Warren. Not nearly as simple as dismissing him for the hate monger that he is.

Worth a read, I think.

Cube, you act like you know what you're talking about. Stop. You don't. You obviously don't know Warren, just what the media tells you about him. David S., don't feel resentful. Preachers aren't any better than the rest of us, but it is their job to lead. If you don't like that, don't listen to them. But it would pay of in eternity if you would.

@Joe: Why don't you explain to me why my logical analysis is wrong. The Antichrist has sucked Warren in and he is a Satanist. Pastor Rick will perish in the flames of Hades.

What kind of name is Joe anyways?

Someone needs to tell Rick Warren that Gluttony is one of the seven deadly sins!

Stop protesting the person who accepts the invitation and look to the person who issued it. The only difference between the belief systems of Warren and Obama is that everyone KNOWS what Warren's is.

Lucinda Wilhelm's child wrote:

>But guess what I never heard while I attended church in Ponce
>de Leon, Missouri at the Pentacostal church.

No surprise there, given the history of the Pentecostalists. In the early 20th century, they were pretty much the only integrated church around.

Cube, being serious for a change (;-), wrote:

>Bottom line: I don't think one should be giving the
>invocation when myself or Tommy or a lot of heathens like us
>could out-debate this guy. He doesn't pass the blog test, and
>that's (without denigrating myself or blogging) crazy
>relative to presidential invocations. In a fair fight (with
>logicians and reasonable people) I'd smash this guy.
>Metaphorically speaking of course.

Sorry, but if you start demanding logic even from *politicians*, you're gonna have a lot of empty seats. And of course any rationalist atheist will tell you that religion is the opposite of logic. So unless you think that a being a political preacher entails the same kind of double negative with respect to logic as Tommy's headline does with respect to truth, I don't think you're going to find one that "passes the blog test." (Not that I would mind in the least if there were no "invocation," or other religious content, at the inauguration or any other governmental occasion. But most people seem to expect it.)

What's the big deal you gays are going to hell in a hand basket anyway.

It's obvious Tommy Christopher is either a Sodomite himself or a gay wanna-be. Let's face it. Nature itself speaks of the perverse nature of sodomy behavior. The very biological and anatomical design of the male and female body makes it obvious they were meant to be together. To flip-flop that into male-male or female -female is the grossest perversion of the natural order known to mankind. To condone this sort of abominable behavior goes against all sound reason and hygiene. STDs are rampant among the homosexual culture as well as violent jealousy, murder, depression and a host of other emotional maladies. Most homosexuals die well below the average life expectancy. To have 1 single partner for a gay person would be almost laughable. The lustful passions associated with their lifestyle goes way beyond a single encounter. It is a ravenous appetite that knows no bounds of law or reason. They will use the excuse that they were born that way, but that is a fallacy. There is no gay gene. That merely eases their already seared conscience and leaves them hopelessly in bondage to actions they both love and hate.

The Succubi will rise up from the depths of Hell and follow Barack as he and his minions swallow your souls. Pastor Warren is but a but a pawn in the Dark Prince's game of chess. In the end, the queens will stand in Satan's army of darkness.



With that, I'd like to turn the subject of math everyone.

I hate to be a dick, but, title is a quintuple negative. "Rick Warren Thinks He Isn't Anti-Gay; He Isn't Not Wrong" Isn't (-1), Anti (-1), Isn't (-1)Not, Wrong (-1). Five negative words. If it were four, and wrong is not counted, then it would read Rick Warren Thinks He is pro gay; he is right. "He is right" is wrong. Why? Title end is Not, Not, Wrong. Isn't = Not, Not= Not, but, "wrong" is not a positive. It's a negative. Thus, Rick Warren thinks he is not,not against, gays; he is not, not, not, right. There.

Oh and thanks.

A light will shine down from somewhere. You will experience an epiphany. And you will say to yourself, you have to support Barack.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxfDEdG0qBs&feature=related

legalize it.