Bob Beckel Defends Socialism on Fox

Socialism isn't unAmerican.

Unless a country is a dictatorship, an absolute monarchy or suffering from anarchy, it will incorporate elements of socialism. It's a spectrum.

Have we not always paid taxes? 'For the common good'? Sometimes with, sometimes without, representation.

Horrors. People are so easily frightened.

Matt - do you understand that our postal service is socialism? That our police and fire departments are socialism? To simply offer the word "socialism" as un-american makes me wonder if you understand what the word means. As an older american, I can assure you that the socialist programs of Social Security and Medicare are a part of what makes my country great. The socialism that is our military also makes me very proud. The United States would be a third world country without the socialism that is part of our society.
And if you are thinking it - NO - I am not a socialist or communist. I am a Democrat, however, but have voted Republican many times.

I don't have a liberal arts training but from my reading socialism is about state ownership of "means of production"...

The military, welfare and social security are not "means of production" - they are providing for general welfare and common defense. No one produces and sells a "social security" or a "national defense."

Check out the Constitution starting with Section 8 and 9 which not only defines what Congress and the states can do under the Constitution. By definition this also limits the states and Congress.

That said, I find the notion of Congress buying and owning stock in the credit markets to be dangerously close to socialism. Beckel may be supportive of the idea of seizing "means of production" in order to limit man-made causes of global warming.

On the other side of the coin, the current administration and state governments seem a bit too eager to outsource government functions. Prisons for instance.

Just a moderate talking here...

OMG Matt...Socialism...you better go run and hide! LOL!

Bob Beckel made some very valid points. There are timesthat it may be in the best interest of our Nation to take a temporary action the appears to be "socialism". Big deal! If it is the correct action then we should do it! Would you rather have us take a less productive/problem solving action just because of the classification? Isn't that like cutting off your nose to spite your face?

We are not talking about rewriting or altering the Constitution...George W already tried that!

GOD BLESS AMERICA!

The dems are not bothing to re-write the constitution... they are just ignoring it... When freedoms are taking a little at a time or for our own good we seem not to act against it... yet in the words of someone that was very wise ....

"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."

"To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical."

both quotes from Thomas Jeffferson...

State socialism is no more than complete control of the means of production - capital and labor. some of the infamous state socialists were (1) Hitler (2) Stalin (3) Mao Tse-tung. Their results - millions of citizens murdered, catastrophic failure of the economies, and complete repression of the freedoms of the individuals. Socialism has NEVER succeeded in any country or experiment (Utopian Harmony Village) and is doomed to failure since it fails to recognize the inherent rights and freedoms of mankind.

Socialism is not something easily reversed - once installed, it is very difficult to get rid of short of a revolution. Economic and political rights and freedoms are inseparable. Socialism is un-American as evidenced by the wars we fought to rid the world of the soclialist oppressors - Hitler et al.

It is time to oppose the state socialists now entering office, in the Thomas Paine fashion, or otherwise, we may be doomed to a slave state similar to the Peoples Republic of China, and the Cuba.

Matt,

It was such a brief appearance that neither you or Bob really had an opportunity to get into the meat of the discussion. All we got to do was see you two agree to disagree. Nonetheless, it was probably pretty cool to be on TV, eh?


JimH,

It is important to note that the military, welfare, and such can indeed be considered 'means of production.' It is also important to note that socialism is a fairly elastic group of definitions, and is not one single idea or concept.

A soldier is a commodity in much the same way as an engineer or a construction worker, and defense can be an industry much in the same way as the porn industry. When a state takes control of the means of producing a common defense, it is using certain socialistic principles to co-opt the ability of private individuals to do it on their own. If we lived in a purely capitalistic society, we would have no military; we'd instead be defended by private security firms.

Heck, even the Progressive Tax is an idea spawned from socialistic ideas. The vast majority of Americans I've met support the progressive tax; are the vast majority of Americans I've met UnAmerican?

Matt Lewis you know Bob Beckel is a stone ass liberal from way back, I think he is a real buddy to Barney Frank. This sucker will run his mouth to every will pay him, another guy who should be working on the New Jersey Turnpike pumping gas.

Pete - and those similarly misinformed / delusional "thinkers". You probably mean well, but do not know what you are talking about. ECONOMIC AND POLITICAL FREEDOMS ARE INSEPARABLE - ONCE YOU CONTROL THE ECONOMY (PLANNED / STATE SOCILAISM) YOU CONTROL THE INDIVIDUAL CITIZENS. This is OPPOSED to the American way of life - the pursuit of "life, liberty and happiness", guaranteed by our founding legal doctrines.

Let's review the utter failure of state socialism (not an "elastic definition"): (1) USSR - complete failure of the socialist economy (2) Peoples Republic of China - the communes, state agricultural policies, planned births / genocide of female babies (3) Cuba - the worst economic conditions in the history of the country (4) Post WWII England - after nationalizing the banks and railroads. The list goes on and on - socialism has NEVER worked but imprisioned people and destroyed economies. It does not matter about your fanciful " elastic group of definitions..." and other similar inane lack of logic, socialism is guaranteed to remove your freedom and centralize all control with the state. Whether it is called state socialism, communism (which is state socialism), fascism, Marxism, fabianism, it is all the same.

The progressive tax you mentioned is in fact a socialist concept, and I can assure you the the majority of Americans do NOT support this socialist planning tool. This was forced on America just like social security. If you still do not understand then read Das Kapital (Marx), and Hegel, from which socialism / communism is based. "Where ignorance is bliss, tis folly to be wise".

Have we not always paid taxes? 'For the common good'? Sometimes with, sometimes without, representation.

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NO we haven't always paid taxes a very small group of merchants did prior to the 1860s perhaps. teachers (my grandmother was one) were paid as a contractor by those who were not able to home school, and she made good money for her day. note: Lincoln was home schooled
communist, socialist society has never worked in any country that it was tried in and always leads to the dictators that you pretend to despise

you certainly wouldn't try your "spectrum" theory out on your drinking water would you?

funny you would say drinking water,

public works, yet another socialist ideal....

BOO!!

R. Hughes, Esq10:05PMJan 14th 2009

Pete - and those similarly misinformed / delusional "thinkers". You probably mean well, but do not know what you are talking about.

xx

I've noticed that you've made a number of errors, and you only know one propagandist side of what you're talking about. It's used by neocons as a smokescreen to divert others from the obvious similarities between fascism and neoconniving.

Hitler, although he said otherwise publicly was a fascist, and that is mutually exclusive of socialism. Mussolini and Gentile explain why in the 1932 doctrine of fascism. He states there that he abandoned socialism because of the endless class struggle and instead dissolved parliament and permitted legislation through the corporazione, a merger of private enterprise and government.

What you're objecting to is authoritarian government with expansionist designs. They do get into trouble and fail. The straw man is that this it the only sort of 'socialism' there is.

That's completely inaccurate, and I'd bet the ranch you know that, hence the screaming caps diversion. Scandinavian social democracy works very well, as does American Social Security, medicare, and at one time the V.A. the fire department, police departments and so on.

Certain functions are better done by governments, and there is as you know constitutional authority for necessary and proper oversight of commerce.

Authoritarian oligarchic governments that are beyond the reach of the voter with expansionist foreign plans and a regard of citizens as existing only to serve the state are another matter entirely.

We nearly turned into one of those.

R. Hughes,

All sentences with Caps-Lock on aside, I think you are operating under a number of misconceptions. For one, I am not convinced that you know what socialism means. While this is not anywhere near the best definition of socialism and socialist concepts, it would do you good to pour it over.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist

I think you are also operating under the misconception that most people are against Progressive Tax. In every presidential election held in the 21st century, both the Republican and Democratic candidates had publically announced their support for the ideals behind Progressive Tax. There was virtually no criticism from reputable quarters on this particular position held by the Presidential contenders. Most of the criticism came from marginal groups or small third-parties. Even the father of modern economics and free-market enterprise, Adam Smith, felt that the Progresive Tax was a sound notion compatible with American ideals.

Here is a link to a reputable poll which would confirm that the majority of Americans support one of the ideas behind the Progressive Tax.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/106813/Many-Americans-Increasing-Taxes-Rich.aspx

Oh the ignorance...

There's more than one kind of 'socialism.' The fact we have an SEC proves that on one level we have socialist institutions. If you want real Lazze-Faire capitalism look at the 1880-1910 period where trusts and monopolies were the result of an utterly unregulated market.

Yes, the USSR was a failed communist state. Corruption and mass purges of a dictorial political system guarenteed it would fail regardless of its economic system. Had the USSR been under the guidance of a humanitarian like Trotsky instead of a paranoid tyrant like Stalin perhaps it would have succeeded. We'll never know.

Anyone who says china and russia are the same kind of socialist needs to be smacked with a mackrel. Maoism,if you want to call it an ism at all, revolved around a cult of personality. Mao didn't know anything about engineering, business, or mass agriculture. His own definitions of what was and wasn't tolerable guarenteed a footing of complete uncertainty.

Cuba, for all your sneering, is not a failed nation. Its government is still in power, and you can hardly measure communism as a rubric for success as it would be difficult for any economic system to thrive with it subject to a forty year obsolete embargo. Despite all this Cuba has a medical system that, despite technology, is both cheeper and more widely available than in the united states.

Now that the big three are out of the way lets talk about the real socialist success stories. Look at Sweden for a change. One of the highest quality of life standards in the world. A country with an astonishingly small rate of crime, it still engages in free elections with full media access to all its citizens. Or perhaps you'd care to look at France with the best healthcare system per capita in the world, not to mention the most sophisticated mass transit system anywhere.

Whenever you have the priority being the individual over the profit, you are evocing socalist ideals. The capitalist mentality is 'can't make an omelette without breaking eggs'. If people get hurt, too bad for them. The socialist mentality is 'why are we making Omelettes if it involves breaking eggs?'

public works, yet another socialist ideal....

BOO!!
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right, invented by the Romans as far as on a large scale yep real prime example of a thriving society
again any where socialism is practiced it fails

Cuba, for all your sneering, is not a failed nation. Its government is still in power, and you can hardly measure communism as a rubric for success
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Look at Sweden for a change. One of the highest quality of life standards in the world. A country with an astonishingly small rate of crime,
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talk to any Cubans lately?

also Sweden has a low crime rate because EVERY home has a M-16 in it, mandatory so you and Matt Lauer are on the same page, wrong book
read: Thomas Sowells' book "Vision of the Anointed"
it will clear up that foggy feeling, he is black if that helps

Anyone who says china and russia are the same kind of socialist needs to be smacked with a mackrel. Maoism,if you want to call it an ism at all, revolved around a cult of personality. Mao didn't know anything about engineering
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doesnt matter if you get hit with a ford or a dodge it is still a truck
socialism is the mechanics,its the same animal everywhere, Mao was just an added tormentor

talk to any Cubans lately?


xxx

A couple of Cuban medical doctors not too long ago. They get free education and their skills are comparable to any in the world. Because of this they export physicians.

They treasure the arts in Cuba too. Here, we got american idol.

Talked to any American doctors who got free educations? Ever?

right, invented by the Romans as far as on a large scale yep real prime example of a thriving society

xx

who told you that, PeeWee Herman?

Get your facts straight idiot. Mussolini's fascism was an attempt to revert to Roman values.

In socialist countries, the government owns EVERYTHING and the individual exists only to serve the state.

In Fascism, and in ancient Rome the state encompassed everything, but it was a stratified society with commoners, artisans, tradesmen and a governing class. Private ownership of property was permitted. In socialism it isn't.

If you're gonna pose as Hitler at least get your fascist act together. You already do the psychotic part OK, though...

Talked to any American doctors who got free educations? Ever?
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well, you get what you pay for, and of course they export(sneak)out no one wants to live there on purpose