The reaction to the murder of abortion doctor George Tiller has given both sides of the abortion debate a reason to repeat old arguments. And there really are no new ones.
On the one side there are people who believe that a human person is created the moment a sperm merges with an egg – a person entitled to the same the moral and legal rights as any human person. And on other the other side are those who do not believe this.
This is not, as President Obama pointed out at his speech at Notre Dame, a reconcilable difference.
There is no science, no experiment, no physical test that can be done to measure personhood. But with all due respect for those who oppose abortion, that doesn't stop them from pulling out physical and emotionally compelling images and arguments to try to sway the murky middle to their side.
A debate between abortion opponents on the appropriate political response to the Obama administration took place only a few days before Dr. Tiller's murder. Princeton legal professor Robert George offered a graphic description of what happens in abortions.
He argued that there can be no reasoned disagreement about "...who is dismembered in a dilation an curettage abortion or whose skin is burned off in a saline abortion or whose skull is pierced or whose brains are sucked out in a dilation and extraction..."
Pretty effective, if gruesome rhetoric.
Less academic opponents of abortion rights famously use sonograms of fetuses, audio recordings of a heartbeat, or gory photos taken post-abortion. An airplane pulling a banner bearing one of those photos circled Notre Dame on the day of Obama's speech last month.
A bill that failed to pass in the just-concluded session of the Texas legislature would have required a woman to have an ultrasound and "listen to her baby's heartbeat" before having an abortion.
At the start of his recent talk, Professor George said: "Candor, far from being the enemy of civility, is one of its preconditions."
So let me be candid: I find the appeal to appearances on the part of abortion rights opponents to be pure hypocrisy.
Would those who hold up those photos of a fully formed fetus as evidence that abortion should be illegal allow the other side the same kind of "evidence?" A human zygote – an early-stage embryo – is indistinguishable from one of a starfish or sea urchin except by an expert. A human emrboyo that is as much as a month old is all-but indistinguishable in appearance from that of a chicken embryo. Are those blobby specks therefore OK to abort?
At the debate, Professor George said that during an abortion the "blood that is shed is human blood. Those bones that are broken are human bones."
As any Jehovah's Witness or Christian Scientist (or surgeon, for that matter) will tell you, the same is true during just about any medical operation. Consider, for gruesome equality, a therapeutically necessary amputation of a leg. There is no question that the tissue and blood removed are alive and totally, chromosomally human.
Would Professor George take a stand against that operation? Does he accept the appropriateness of early-term abortions, where no bones are broken? Would he accept a method of later-term abortions if it could be proven that no blood was shed or bones broken?
Of course not.
If the abortion debate is about sounds, appearances, or the clinical descriptions of the procedures, those who oppose abortion have reduced the argument to worldly aesthetics. The abortion debate is not about whether a fetus is "alive." It is an argument about the most fundamental question of how one defines a human person.
While the differences between the two sides cannot be reconciled, surely they can be defined honestly.
If you could be a very late term abortion, the world would be a better place.
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Dante
2:14AM Jun 3rd 2009
Typical b.s. An amputation that cuts bones or sheds blood is done to protect or save that person's life,not end it. Whether a one month old embryo resembles a chicken embryo or a golf ball doesn't matter,the process and stages of life that started at conception have begun.A 15 year old person who has been disfigured in a terrible accident may look like a chicken or not like a regular person,that doesn't make their life any less a life,. Any one who is in favor of the mass murder of innocent human life that goes on every day in this country is a callous,evil,selfish person.
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Wendell Welling
2:31AM Jun 3rd 2009
The human zygote may be indistinguishable from an embryonic chicken by the naked eye, but surely the author is aware that the DNA can be distinguished. Are human beings supposed to be the only mammals that don't gestate, but spring upon conception as fully formed adults? Is the fact that the embryo starts out as a simple zygote a reason to doubt it's origin and if left unkilled, it's destiny? Life is a continuum, only individuality is unique. There is NO death in the passing of life between individuals. Just as the baton does not drop in a relay race. Abortion is the tossing away of the baton once it has been passed.
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Layla
2:34AM Jun 3rd 2009
So, if human life begins the moment the sperm hits the egg, how come we don't celebrate the day of conception, if we are people at that moment?
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Somber
2:37AM Jun 3rd 2009
Dante, there are folks in PETA who would use that very same line, minus a word, to decribe you having a hamburger. One person's sacred cow is another persons steak, and just because you don't like it doesn't make it right or wrong for anyone beyound yourself.
Now my opinion about abortion? I don't care. Please take a moment to appricate this. I don't care if she's getting it in the first month or the ninth. I don't care if she takes plan B or if she turns her fetus' skull into an ashtray after slurping out its brains with a shop vac. I. Don't. Care. There are a billion cruel and inhuman things humans do to other fully grown, fulling personalized people every single day. Do you really think that I am going to care about some meat that hasn't even taken a single breath of air on it's own? We have murder, rape, genocide, bigotry, and slavery affecting hundreds of millions of people... flesh and blood people that you can have a conversation with and ask them what they think about and feel and dream of. And yes, I could the murder of a doctor who is a real person, as infinitely more tragic and greater a loss than ten pounds of meat.
Now, I suppose according to your criteria I am a... how'd you put it? Oh yes. Callous, evil, and selfish. Would it surprise you learn that, would I to get pregnant, I wouldn't have an abortion? Likely I would opt for adoption, but rearing that hunk of meat to become an actual person wouldn't be out of the question either. It would depend on the circumstances. But I wouldn't go for abortion, personally. Not unless my life was on the line.
But some one else getting an abortion? I don't care. Not my business. Not my problem. Not even a blip on my radar when I consider all the real world suffering of real people who have real personalities and real potentials. So save your wind and actual do something that improves this world than crying about all the poor unfortunates who will never be born, never mind you'd not know a single one of them as a person were they to have been born.
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douglasmc
6:58PM Jun 3rd 2009
Somber says he doesn't care if it is a 9 month old fetus being aborted. What about a 8 month old premie? Does a person magically obtain human rights during the trip down the birth canal. When it comes to late term abortion, the line is perilously close to infanticide.
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Joe
6:25PM Jun 9th 2009
"Now, I suppose according to your criteria I am a... how'd you put it? Oh yes. Callous, evil, and selfish. "
You got that right
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yar2009
2:48AM Jun 3rd 2009
Jeffery is an award winning writer? In this article he is incredibly obtuse. He makes the pro-life case and then to dismantle it he reaches for absurd argument. Jeffery was once a zygote. When Jeffery was in his zygote stage, he was not on his way to being a starfish! At each and every stage he was being fashioned according to his human dna in that awesome process which we all have gone through. That process, begun as a zygote ends only with natural death. We continue to be fashioned until at last we become what we shall be, a human being who has lived for good or for ill. Jeffery the zygote, Jeffery the embryo, Jeffery the fetus, Jeffery the helpless infant, Jeffery the protected little boy, Jeffery the growing child, Jeffery the teenager, Jeffery the man, until Jeffery breathes his last breath. God bless Jeffery along his journey even though he would dismiss another's opportunity to make this awesome trip.
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yar2009
3:09AM Jun 3rd 2009
It is sad to read Somber's comments. Somber doesn't care she says. She made that evident. There is terrible violence in Somber's process of ratiocination. The implications of Somber's disjointed reasoning are horrific. To dissassociate so profoundly, based on a supposed value system that values human life only when human life is "flesh and blood people that you can have a conversation with and ask them what they think about and feel and dream of..," is a shallowness of thinking one rarely sees admitted. I suppose Somber would just as uncaringly dismiss the execution of many disabled persons, many elderly persons suffering from dementia. Somber ought to at least care about getting her mind together and not just spouting words that reveal her as unappreciative of, not only the laws of logic but also the law of love.
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bob
7:25AM Jun 3rd 2009
Somber is "openly gay". The likelihood of her having to deal with an inconvenient and unwanted pregnancy are slim to none. So it's not particularly surprising that she doesn't care.
Somber is also an 8th grade public school teacher. I wonder how the parents of some of her students would react to her 4 paragraph recitation of just how deeply she "doesn't care"?
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Somber
10:28AM Jun 3rd 2009
And you missed the point entirely.
The point is that a fetus is not a person. It's anywhere from a few cells to ten or so pounds of meat. It's a tumor that will eventually kill the host if it's not removed. You are a person. Bob is a person. Tiller was a person. You can get on a computer and type out your thoughts, feelings, and opinions. You have ideas and values and personalities and dreams and asperations. A fetus is just meat. Meat that will eventually, once removed and with time, become a person. Good bad or otherwise, it will become a person. I know. I taught 140 of them this year.
Now, as for Bob's poor attempt to shame me, a couple of my students who are mature enough have had this conversation. Believe it or not I've talked a student OUT of having an abortion... not for the well being of the fetus but for the well being of the student. I knew that, psychologically, having an abortion would do severe damage. So after talking to me, because they know that I will talk about almost anything so long as they are mature about it, we went to the counsilor. She doesn't have a plan yet but at least she's not talking that way.
Oh, and Bob? Ever hear of a little something called rape? I don't have to be willing to be inseminated.
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bob
6:07PM Jun 3rd 2009
Like I said, Somber, the chances of you ever having an unwanted pregnancy are extremely slim and they are. So your third paragraph, justifying your reference to the unborn as meat, in that overwrought "I don't care" statement, is worthless.
Perhaps, as an experiment (and to prove me wrong) you could point your students in the direction of that post and encourage them to show it to their parents.
Interesting view point on the unborn versus the born. In a matter of minutes they go from a piece of meat to a human being. And yet, in terms of viability, a newborn is no more viable than it was several minutes before leaving the womb without intervention.
It's magic thinking that makes a distinction of that nature.
I'm all for women having the choice. What I'm not for is attempting to make it an easier choice be calling the unborn infant a piece of meat.
That, Somber, is bullshit. And I have a feeling that if your students parents saw your statements to that effect, they'd call it bullshit as well.
But hey, if you're comfortable with the statement, prove me wrong. Show it to them.
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yar2009
3:12AM Jun 3rd 2009
Layla, we don't generally know the day of conception, but the human beings I know rejoice when they find they are with child. That is the expression that humans have used to describe pregnancy: "with child."
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sitokhan1
3:13AM Jun 3rd 2009
The argument is not whether abortion is right or wrong. The point is a courageous doctor who only wanted to help people was murdered in Church while at prayer. And so-called Christian groups are celebrating a man's death. Jesus must be weeping.
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yar2009
3:28AM Jun 3rd 2009
stokhan1, the argument put forth by Jeffrey is exactly whether abortion is right or wrong and that is the thread here. As for the doctor's death, that is objectively murder. The jury is out concerning the killer's mental state and any dimunition of responsibility for his crime. What Christian groups are celebrating the doctor's death? The jury is also out as to whether the doctor only wanted to help or that the doctor was at prayer. God alone is the Judge of the doctor's heart. We do know that the doctor willfully killed many human beings. We don't have before us the individual cases and his justifications for taking those human lives. In any event, since you raised the question in this thread, it was wrong for someone to kill the doctor however heinous the doctor's actions. We can't be going around killing those we determine to be evildoers.
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Danny
3:29AM Jun 3rd 2009
Jehovah's Witnesses blood transfusion confusion
Simple fact-The Bible does not prohibit Blood transfusions.If you are bleeding to death it is more dangerous to refuse a blood transfusions than to take one. Bloodless surgeries are great if they can be elective.1/3rd of all trauma deaths are from blood loss. Jehovah's Witnesses elders will investigate and disfellowship any Jehovah Witness who takes a blood transfusion,to say the issue is a 'personal conscience matter' is subterfuge to keep the Watchtower out of lawsuits..
Jehovah's Witnesses children die every year worldwide due to blood transfusion ban.Rank & file Jehovah's Witness are indoctrinated to be scared to death of blood FYI 1) JW's DO USE many parts aka 'fractions' aka components of blood,so if it's 'sacred' to God why the hypocritical contradiction flip-flop?
2) They USE blood collections that are donated by Red Cross and others but don't donate back,more hypocrisy.
3) The Watchtower promotes and praises bloodless elective surgeries,this is a great advancement indeed.BUT it's no good to me if I am bleeding to death from a car crash and lose much of my blood volume and need EMERGENCY blood transfusion.
Remember the Jehovah's Witnesses use thousands and thousands of pints of blood donated by others.They use 60% of the blood volume as broken down "fractions" then go on Bible thumping rants about how dangerous and sinful blood transfusions are.
( JW do allow organ transplants which has more risk than whole blood transfusions so their arguments of disease transmission is bogus)
Know this,the reason that JW refuse blood is because of their spin on the 3000 year old Biblical old testament,modern medicine will eventually make blood donations and transfusions a thing of the past.When this technology happens it won't vindicate the Jehovah's Witnesses and all the deaths that have occurred so far. The Watchtower's rules against blood transfusions will eventually be abolished (very gradually to reduce wrongful death lawsuit liability) even now most of the blood 'components' are allowed.
Just how the hell do you claim to know so much personal information about another commenter, and what gives you the right to make thinly-veiled threats against their career?
Should we have the feds start investigating you now, before you decide to go off the deep end and shoot someone for holding an opinion you disagree with?
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bob
6:19PM Jun 3rd 2009
Maureen,
Somber has on numerous occasions brought up both pieces of information herself.
I think if one is going to make a statement as regards what they'd do in a particular situation, the relative likelihood of that situation actually occurring is relevant.
For example, it's relatively easy for me to say I'd be more than willing to pay the additional taxes on incomes greater than $250K because I felt it served the greater good, since I don't make that much and probably won't any time in the near future. So the value of that statement is relatively worthless. As is the third paragraph in Somber's extended version of "I don't care".
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cfirestar2
8:45AM Jun 3rd 2009
No body likes abortion,no one wants to have one,so if we push sex education ,make birth control free,prevent the unwanted pregnancy you resolve the problem.Hell make birth control mandatory till you want to have a kid.Kids are going to experiment with sex,preaching not till your married does not work.Flooding the country with unwanted children is not an option,look at all the kids in forster care who grow up unloved,insecure,with twisted lives due to living this way,and you want to add more to the numbers,nurture those we already have,make birth control free prevent pregnancy.
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victorlazlo58
9:00AM Jun 4th 2009
Can anyone explain why it's just the modern generations that are having this problem of getting pregnant right and left? My mothers generation didn't. Mine didn't. Is the current generation just a bunch of whores who can't keep their panties on?